Celestial grid seems to be off by 2 hours

[Frosita]

hi, I was looking at the stars from my birth time, so that I could compare them with some sidereal astrology I am currently looking into. the time and place is 23:51 (+10h) on 19th July 1974. place is Sydney Australia. (or there abouts) anyway the planet Jupiter is lying in aquarius which is good but the celestial grid states that it is within the timezone of 22 - 0 hours when my astrology program says it is in 20 - 22 hours. The only thing I have come up with so far is that it uses a different house system. maybe vedic or whole. the astrology program I am using is astrolog -
http://www.magitech.com/~cruiser1/astrolog.htm.

If anyone can tell me why it is in the 0 - 22 hour spot of the celestial grid instead of the 22 - 24 hour grid I would be extremely thankful

cheers frosita

[selden]

Precession of the equinoxes.

2 hours = 1 house, roughly the amount that the signs have drifted since they were first defined.

See http://www.griffithobs.org/SkyOphiuchus.html for a rather clear description of the situation.

The Age of Aquarius won't actually get here for another 600 years. Oh, well.

[Frosita]

hmm I thought that the signs started with the aries sign and finished with the pisces sign. And then I assumed that the houses started in their natal signs. I.e. aries has house 1 and gemini house 2 etc. So I assumed (lot's of assuming) that the hours would start when aries started. And so 0 hours would start when aries started and its house would coincide with it. Therefore even if you divide all of the houses up by 12 then you are still going to have your true zero point at aries. (once again I am assuming). Then you would have 2 hours at the beginning of the house for gemeni which should by default be in its natal position which is house 2.

I think what you are refering too is the house system called whole and to be frank I ain't got a clue what it is about because it makes all of the houses outa wack with their natal signs.

cheers frosita

[Thilo]

[DUMMY MODE ON] :lol:

[granthutchison]

I.e. aries has house 1 and gemini house 2 etc.

Um. What happened to Taurus?

Your problem is that the astrological zero hour is not the same thing as the astronomical zero hour - as Selden says, precession of the equinoxes has moved the real-world coordinate system out of line with the zodiacal houses you're using. The zero point for your astrology program is indeed at the start of the house of Aries, which corresponds roughly to the location of the constellation Aries in the sky (not exactly, since the houses are defined as spanning 30 degrees each, and the constellations themselves aren't that tidy). That corresponds to about 2h right ascension in present celestial coordinates, which means that all the zodiacal houses are out of register by about 2 hours. You can check this easily enough in Celestia. 19th July would make your natal sign Cancer, just short of Leo, wouldn't it? Look at the real-world position of the Sun on your birth date - Gemini, just short of Cancer.
The fact you're still finding Jupiter in the real constellation of Aquarius as well as the house of Aquarius is just a result of the shape of that constellation - it has a big eastward extension, so part of it is still in contact with its astrological house, even though other, more compact, constellations are now completely out of register.

Grant

[frosita not logged in]

So the astrological wobble has put us out by 2 hours. From what Seldon wrote. I have figured that the "professional community has decided to implement another star sign which corresponds to that 30 degree thing also. But what I really want is to have a standard grid. It doesn't really bother me that it's not perfect because, as I am sure people will on-day realise, nothing can be or will ever be perfect. I know that some things with astrology sound pathetic but I have found some things to be kinda infuencial. I.e. when people are born with their sun and a majority of their planets on the other side of the globe, they tend to be more private people. obviously this wouldn't stand up in a statistical analysis, but then statistical analysis's only usually go one level deep. i.e. this causes that.

also. sidereal astrology takes the wobble into account. From it I can tell exactly where my sun and moon are when I am born. so on the dates I showed you, the sun is in cancer right at the cusp, about 1 or 2 degrees in.

cheers
Frosita

[selden]

I know almost nothing about astrology, so I won't say anything about that.

However, I do need to say something about your comment about statistics. Statistics says nothing whasoever about which causes what. Rather, one simple way of describing it is to say that statistics is a way to measure how often and how closely various circumstances accompany one another. People looking at those interrelationships will often conclude that one caused another, but that's a separate issue.

[granthutchison]

From what Seldon wrote. I have figured that the "professional community has decided to implement another star sign which corresponds to that 30 degree thing also.

Not really. Ophiuchus is a constellation that has always been part of the zodiacal band through which the Sun passes, but it's not one used by astrologers - I think there are probably numerological reasons for ancient astrologers preferring the number 12 over 13.

But what I really want is to have a standard grid.

I think you're using the wrong tool for the job you want to do. Celestia is a piece of astronomical software, and so uses astronomical coordinates. But I'm sure there is astrological software out there that'll work in the coordinates you want (though probably not as beautifully!)

The situation is analogous to this one: You've bought a car in the UK, but you're driving it on US roads - the manufacturers aren't going to be particularly motivated to move the steering wheel to the other side of the vehicle for you.

Grant

[Guest]

I wonder why they have picked a constellation that is the same length and underneath sagitarius or scorpio (I can't remember which). If they picked this sign as another area of space to help divide the equitorial into 13 slices, shouldn't they have picked a sign in between other signs.

Also how come it is called a celestial grid.

Finally I'd like to say that it is quite an enjoyable experience to feel about the universe the same way the egyptians did. Not to mention that it is a good lesson in emotions. Believing that fiction is fact can be quite an experience. You think about these ancient astrologers. They see something moving that isn't a star. oh gee it must be alive then, musn't it. And what better way than a standard religion to bring all of the people together. Imagine the whole of the country you are living in believing in the same dream with the same hopes.

Sorry if that was a bit lengthy.

Frosita

[granthutchison]

I wonder why they have picked a constellation that is the same length and underneath sagitarius or scorpio (I can't remember which). If they picked this sign as another area of space to help divide the equitorial into 13 slices, shouldn't they have picked a sign in between other signs.

The constellations are just there, they haven't been "chosen" with any purpose in mind, as far as astronomers are concerned. It just so happens that the path of the Sun and planets across the starry background slices through parts of thirteen classical constellations (although the exact boundaries used by astronomers were defined more recently). Ophiuchus and Scorpius actually have similar spans along the ecliptic, one lying mainly north and the other mainly south - but Scorpius is the brighter and clearer constellation, and I'm sure that influenced its incorporation into the zodiac, at Ophiuchus' expense.

Also how come it is called a celestial grid.

Because it is a coordinate grid in the sky, as you can see if you turn it on in Celestia. The word "celestial" comes from the Latin caelum, meaning "sky".

Grant