Sarcastic and snide remarks will no longer be tolerated

[selden]

If you do not want to provide a helpful answer, do NOT respond to a question.

Many postings to the Celestia Forum by Celestia regulars have become quite inappropriate. People have been responding to questions from novice and nontechnical users with intolerance, sarcasm and snide remarks.

Such postings are in violation of the Forum's guidelines and will no longer be tolerated.

People making such inappropriate posts will be temporarily banned for a period of time yet to be determined.

A public list of who has been banned, why, and for how long will be maintained in the User's Forum, although the people who have been doing this know who they are and so does everyone else.

It doesn't matter who such people are in the community. They have been doing the equivalent of peeing in everyone's drinking water, which cannot be tolerated.

It has been brought to my attention that in a small community like this one, a public list of who has been banned and why, is easily interpreted as being a "shame list". That had not been my intent, but rather for it to be a public record of my own actions and of those of whoever else might have this responsibility. This kind of list is also common in larger Forums, like BAUT, and I thought it would be appropriate to emulate them.

This would seem to be my mistake, however, and a personal, private reprimand is more appropriate. I'm removing the Banned topic.

[ElChristou]

To not spam the initial post, I translate my comment here.

Mikej is in the right and you guys are in the wrong.

If you do not want to provide a helpful answer,
*DO NOT ANSWER A POST*

Sarcasm and snide remarks ARE NOT APPROPRIATE.

I've gotten sick of these attitudes and I'm going to have to take a hard line on this.

People who provide an inappropriate, sarcastic or intentionally unhelpful response will be banned for a period of time yet to be determined. It doesn't matter who you are.

Sorry Selden, despite I have a lot of consideration for your patience and peaceful attitude and despite I agree in the theoretical principle of an utopia where everybody is joyful and help each other, I disagree with your points.
But first of all it would be good to stop playing small. I know lots of people here are pissed of by Fridger's way of communication and I am one of the few others having a hard time with dumb and unconsidered questions from newbies. So basically as I started with sarcasms after Mikej post, let's say that your message and other posts after this one are targeting some precise users. Fridger, I and a few others. But Fridger is of course the target N°1. Please don't say it's not true.
Now, let's dig a bit the problem. Talking about attitude and others human factors are not important anymore, what is important are the facts.

Fact 1:
We had, we have and we will always have unconsidered persons who will ask for stupid things. By stupid, I mean irrelevant/misplaced things. This is a fact, it's true an cannot be denied.
Just an example, Mikej who don't know what is an executable should not post. Now, a personal note: I take his post as: "I'm a lazy guy, I won't do any effort, give me the solution to my problem, it's an order". See what I mean? I take it as an aggression. Now if at least the guy was here since a few years an had contributed in something, I guess it would not be the same, but this kind of attitude from a less than let's say 50 posts user is an aggression to me.

Fact2:
Lot's of people here are blaming Fridger for all the bad in the community > old timers are quitting, newbies are slashed as flies, the guy is intolerable and always want to have the last word etc... Another fact that need a bit of digging.

Fact 1: Level of the board:
Or we do want a board with a certain level of discussion or we do not.
If we choose to keep a medium to high level of discussion, noob questions due to blatant laziness should been threaten without pity. That sounds harsh but this will turn away all lazy people who will never contribute in an effective way. This will avoid spamming the board with endless discussions about stuff unrelated to Celestia like teaching someone how to use his computer.
If we choose not to keep a descent level, quickly we can end with a chaotic board and then there is a risk of erosion of the active users. Imagine more than 50% of the board spammed with irrelevant/silly/stupid questions, why a serious user would want to stay in the middle of this?

Fact2: Fridger the all bad guy, tolerance zero:
Fridger vs newbies: we are in Fact1, I guess he have choosen to keep a descent level on the board.
Fridger vs old timers: we are here in front of the tricky problem. And again I think we should look at facts. Celestia is (eventually now, was...) Chris L + Fridger. The rest of the dev by other dev men are small things (maintenance, adjustments etc) in comparison to what these two guys are doing (whoever say it's not true, please talk now, I'm curious to see who you are).
Not only Fridger has been active at dev level but he also represent a barrier to keep us falling into easiness. He always ask for better stuff, better accuracy etc and so is one of the very few people who actually represent the ultimate end user, the guy who knows how work a computer, a software but also knows better than anybody else here the problem linked to astronomy and astrophysics. That again is a fact, not a fiction.
So when I read people making open criticism on details (way of expression etc) and forgetting the most important part, that makes me thing that these persons do not accept that someone may be far better (from a knowledge/intellectual point of view) than them. And that's not something that can be tolerated because else Fridger have to quit immediatly and then Celestia lose something very, but very important.

So I think that all is a question of respect. But some here are using this argument in a way that arrange their own views. Perso I think one must gain respect. Thinking that everybody should respect everybody equally without taking in consideration the valor of a person in relation to the task we are working on is pure utopia.

Now Selden, if you want at all cost real peace and harmony and want to ignore the above points, I think it's not with this kind of regulation that you will do something (or yes, eventually kill a bit more the community).
Just open a whole sub forum for newbies, and hide all the actual forums till they get 50/100 posts. They will have time to play, to ask, to do whatever, you will be able to teach them all they need without having people like me or Fridger on the back. (And eventually I'm sure you can even hide the newbie forum for people having more than 50/100 posts, this way peace is guaranteed...)

Now, perso I won't change a iota in my way to be until you prove me I'm plain wrong.
(And as I'm not anymore in a kindergarden a ban means I'll be out definitively)

[selden]

I repeat what I wrote using different words:

If you feel you must say something derogatory about another forum member or about the kinds of posts a forum member makes,
DO NOT

This is not a social forum. This is not Facebook. This is not Second Life. It is not Twitter.
It is a forum for discussing Celestia and helping people to use it.

[ElChristou]

Sorry Selden, a forum is forum, it's a social place whatever the theme is. As I'm not a robot, what I say above is still true.

[t00fri]

This is not a social forum. This is not Facebook. This is not Second Life. It is not Twitter.
It is a forum for discussing Celestia and helping people to use it.

Selden,

one thing I am curious about: WHO really has defined so exactly the purpose of this forum? WHO really strives to turn it into a mere "CALLCENTER"?

So far I have always thought that shatters.net is kept alive and florishing by the stimulating contributions and devotion of its users, accompanied by mutual respect and liking! With my 7385 posts during the past 7 years I have certainly contributed a lot in the sense of stimulation AND devotion!

And... it was probably me who cared FIRST when you, Christophe Teyssier, Bob Hegwood and quite a few others were having serious health problems... For me this ALSO belongs to an environment where people meet every night since many years.

Don't you realize that your narrow "callcenter style" definition will make this place extremely boring in no time? With your draconic action of today, you may have saved a couple of "transient logins" by "nameless users", but you will certainly loose the substance and persistence of some most active longtime Celestians. How can an environment remain stimulating, if people are formally prevented to express their opinions besides delivering pure HELP services that you love so much? How about little HELP robots for this forum?

Among other things, you have certainly contributed today to initiating an official forking that Chris and I tried to avoid as much as possible. Congratulations!

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Anyway, herewith I cordially invite everyone with a more open mind and love for interesting discussions over to Celestial Matters!.
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Fridger

[Reiko]

People will ask questions some find stupid. Goodness knows I've asked plenty myself and it wasn't because of laziness. It was because I simply didn't know the answer or how to find the answer in a form I can understand. Thanks to the patience of people on this forum, I've learned a great deal on how to use Celestia that I doubt I would have learned on my own.

[ElChristou]

... Christophe Teyssier, Bob Hegwood and quite a few others were having serious health problems...

So that's the reason of Christophe disappearance... Hope he will be ok...

[ElChristou]

People will ask questions some find stupid. Goodness knows I've asked plenty myself and it wasn't because of laziness. It was because I simply didn't know the answer or how to find the answer in a form I can understand. Thanks to the patience of people on this forum, I've learned a great deal on how to use Celestia that I doubt I would have learned on my own.

Reiko, the problem is not the stupid questions, the problem is the general attitude. Perso I'm pissed of by people irrupting into the forum with a "king of the hill" attitude, no presentation, no Tx, just a dumb question with a tone near to aggression. That's the kind of person I talking about above. Now comes in with respect or with humility when necessary and I guess no one will be aggressive or cynical. That may sounds as utopian as Selden idea of equal mutual respect but seems to me it is quite more logical.

[t00fri]

So basically as I started with sarcasms after Mikej post, let's say that your message and other posts after this one are targeting some precise users.

OHA! For once I thought you were serious (no kidding!).

That's why I was kind of surprised to see Selden's reaction to my post, which represents an entirely serious expression of my opinion about this matter! So honestly, I felt quite innocent (this time ). Whoever is in doubt, please read again my quotation of Christophe along with my answer.

Just "for the record", so to speak...

Fridger

[ElChristou]

So basically as I started with sarcasms after Mikej post, let's say that your message and other posts after this one are targeting some precise users.

OHA! For once I thought you were serious (no kidding!).

Hu? I thought this one was obvious... More, I've to confess I been really bad on this one because it was a double shot; one to Mikej of course (I've been reading again his post, really the tone is deplorable and Guillermo was right to not answer him) but also to... Chuft... (sorry Chuft! ). What I mean is Chuft is like Selden, excellent person. He do wrote a bunch of lines with some code showing how things work, all very nice indeed but clearly just missing the point; Mikej was clearly not the guy who will be interested in such response. So I could not avoid a little spike to Chuft to express my skepticism is front of so much gentle efforts for nothing...

[BobHegwood]

... Christophe Teyssier, Bob Hegwood and quite a few others were having serious health problems...

Bob Hegwood has had serious health problems since 1974, so that shouldn't affect
my participation too much.

By the way, I think Selden has EVERY right to administer the board in any manner
he chooses to. He is the most patient, understanding and knowledgeable guy I
have ever had the pleasure to engage in discourse with. Sooo...

Thanks, Brain-Dead

[t00fri]

... Christophe Teyssier, Bob Hegwood and quite a few others were having serious health problems...

Bob Hegwood has had serious health problems since 1974, so that shouldn't affect
my participation too much.

By the way, I think Selden has EVERY right to administer the board in any manner
he chooses to. He is the most patient, understanding and knowledgeable guy I
have ever had the pleasure to engage in discourse with. Sooo...

Thanks, Brain-Dead

So good then. At least you are happy...

Fridger

[ElChristou]

... Christophe Teyssier, Bob Hegwood and quite a few others were having serious health problems...

Bob Hegwood has had serious health problems since 1974, so that shouldn't affect
my participation too much.

By the way, I think Selden has EVERY right to administer the board in any manner
he chooses to. He is the most patient, understanding and knowledgeable guy I
have ever had the pleasure to engage in discourse with. Sooo...

Thanks, Brain-Dead

Bob, Selden is the good man you are picturing here. That makes no doubt.
Now I don't see why this can give him every right on the board, specially when it's question to ban one of the 2 prime coders of the soft. Can you explain me where is the logic here?
If this board is just a place to park people and use them at will only for debugging purpose just like many other fake communities out there, then fine but this will be without me either...

[ANDREA]

I think all of us should go here
http://www.shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6180
and read the "Forum Guidelines".
We can find there:

-6 Respond publicly to inappropriate postings.
If you think someone has posted something inappropriate, please discuss it with them privately or report it to a moderator. Do not reply to them in the Forum.

Consequences for violating these guidelines:
-- Forum moderators may lock, edit or delete postings which violate these guidelines, usually with an explanation why.

People who persistantly violate these guidelines may not be allowed to use the Forum again.

Clarification added (and clarified) 3-Oct-2006:
| Among other things, this means that you should not write on this Forum about the personal failings of people who post to the Forum.
| The Celestia Web Forum is for discussing Celestia.
| The Forum is not for arguing with or about people who do not meet with your approval.

By registering with this forum you agree to be bound by these conditions.

This is what ALL OF US ACCEPTED when registering to Shatters.net.
So... what's the problem with the moderator decision?
Bye

Andrea

[selden]

I'm sorry about the confusion about my use of the "social website" metaphor. I realized later (while off-net) that I hadn't been writing clearly, and had not written what I meant. Discussion of topics which are not related to Celestia are certainly welcome in the Forum which has the relatively poor name of "Purgatory".

I meant to refer to the rude personal interactions which have become far too common here. They often take the form of personal attacks, using sarcasm, condescension and snide remarks. Too many people here act as if they think this kind of behavior is acceptable, but I most certainly do [not.. Such discourse may be allowed on some "social" sites, but it cannot be allowed here any more.

Having the self control to avoid using those kinds of remarks is one of the signs of maturity. It is not being overly kind and gentle as some seem to want to believe. It is part of the social lubricant which helps people contribute to a common goal and which attracts others to do so as well. When people see rude behavior is the norm, they are strongly discouraged from becoming involved. There are plenty of other places to go where they'll be accepted without having to experience such behavior.

[ElChristou]

...This is what ALL OF US ACCEPTED when registering to Shatters.net.
So... what's the problem with the moderator decision?

I guess five years ago my English was really terrible and perhaps I haven't understood well at the time...

...
No I'm kidding!

Now, seriously, you guys are quite incredible.
I know many many people don't care about their own neighbors and sometime about their own family members, but perso I'm not of that kind. Here how I work:

If I met a spam I do PM Selden to point the problem with url and all to makes his life as moderator easier.
If I can help someone serious I do help.
If I see a troll or other stupid guy that won't for sure do anything for us and more than this is injurious by it's way of stepping in, I post a kind welcome that will (in general) turn him away without any questions.

That's the kind of stuff I do when I check the forum to help Selden. The guy is a very good person and is alone with a not so easy charge. If he had to kindly answer each silly questions we would not stop, would be a full time job!
Now, the kind of rules you are referring to are done to avoid massive problem of moderation in massive communities. Here it's not the case, the community is tiny and only new comers should be under this kind of rules. Once you have proved your interest in the project, once you have committed work for it etc, these rules should not exist anymore. And in practice till today it was like this.
Now, if you guys really want to go for a military/zomby like discipline, please let me now clearly because in that case I'm out.

[t00fri]

...
No I'm kidding!

My dear friend!

watch out: kidding is NOT allowed anymore in this forum. It might also be misinterpreted as sarcasm...

KUNG FU: "Having the self control to avoid using those kinds of remarks is one of the signs of maturity."

Cheers,
Fridger

[ElChristou]

I meant to refer to the rude personal interactions which have become far too common here.

I don't think they become too common, it's just that the community is near death with no more fascinating topics. So yes the only thing constant are lazy newbies and so actually it's all we can see...

They often take the form of personal attacks, using sarcasm, condescension and snide remarks. Too many people here act as if they think this kind of behavior is acceptable...

Sorry Selden but I think you are generalizing way to much. First perso I never ever post whiteout a good reason. So even if I've been sarcastic or condescending, it was for something. Sarcasm is a way of expression that well used is really efficient. People may understand with a few words were is a problem and react in the good way or not. People with over sized ego will turn away, people more conscientious will apologize and rebuild their question in better shape. What the problem with that?

Having the self control to avoid using those kinds of remarks is one of the signs of maturity. It is not being overly kind and gentle as some seem to want to believe. It is part of the social lubricant which helps people contribute to a common goal and which attracts others to do so as well. When people see rude behavior is the norm, they are strongly discouraged from becoming involved. There are plenty of other places to go where they'll be accepted without having to experience such behavior.

I don't see why being rude with rude people may turn away people who are clearly not of this kind. Now, as you touch this topic, sorry Selden but perhaps a more active kind of moderation could avoid this kind of discussion. Exemple:

- A guy post something that can be taken as not really correct in the form.
- You as mod delete his message and PM him to rewrite his post in a more appropriate form; you can have a pro formatted message for this kind of stuff explaining that this is not Facebook or other.
- The guy re post or go away
- No trouble for the regular users
- No bad ambiance at all, everybody happy.

Ok, ok, that is more work as a mod, but technically I guess it's the role of the moderator...

[t00fri]

I meant to refer to the rude personal interactions which have become far too common here.

I don't think they become too common, it's just that the community is near death with no more fascinating topics. So yes the only thing constant are lazy newbies and so actually it's all we can see...

Sarcasm is a way of expression that well used is really efficient. People may understand with a few words were is a problem and react in the good way or not. People with over sized ego will turn away, people more conscientious will apologize and rebuild their question in better shape. What the problem with that?

Oh I could kiss you for this . But hey everyone, it wasn't me who wrote it!

Fridger

[ElChristou]

...watch out: kidding is NOT allowed anymore in this forum. It might also be misinterpreted as sarcasm...

KUNG FU: "Having the self control to avoid using those kinds of remarks is one of the signs of maturity."

Yep, then I believe you should go and practice your Kung Fu a lot!