Sarcastic and snide remarks will no longer be tolerated

[ElChristou]

Oh I could kiss you for this ...

Hey stop it, else people will believe we have an affair!

[t00fri]

Oh I could kiss you for this ...

Hey stop it, else people will believe we have an affair!

Pas d'probl?me en France

[ElChristou]

How do you know I'm a true French Lover??

Let's stop the off topic interlude; I would really like some counter arguments to my last ones...

[BobHegwood]

Let's stop the off topic interlude; I would really like some counter arguments to my last ones...

My dear friend (I hope) and the Good Doctor Schrempp (who I also count as my friend)...

I'm afraid that I really just do not understand why you appear to be so angry at this topic.

What have I missed? Selden is simply asking us to use good manners when responding on
the forum. I, for one, have no problems with this.

Care to PM me with details?

Thanks, Brain-Dead

[ElChristou]

Let's stop the off topic interlude; I would really like some counter arguments to my last ones...

My dear friend (I hope) and the Good Doctor Schrempp (who I also count as my friend)...

I'm afraid that I really just do not understand why you appear to be so angry at this topic.

What have I missed? Selden is simply asking us to use good manners when responding on
the forum. I, for one, have no problems with this.

Care to PM me with details?

Thanks, Brain-Dead

Bob, why PM? I think there is not enough communication between us and that's also part of the problem.
Angry? Perso not at all. I'm just amazed in front of such non sensical situation. To resume just for you, how people like Chris (quite recently) and Selden dare threatening someone they should consider as you do as a friend (I'm talking about Fridger) the way they do? Seems to their eyes whatever you will do for Celestia will never being enough to gain their confience and friendship. I find this revolting since Fridger have done a lot for this soft. There is lots of solutions to our problems, but the only way they choose is the worst solution that will without a doubt end with a fork of the soft. I find this just plain stupid and so amazing coming from people who ARE educated...

[BobHegwood]

Bob, why PM? I think there is not enough communication between us and that's also part of the problem.
Angry? Perso not at all. I'm just amazed in front of such non sensical situation. To resume just for you, how people like Chris (quite recently) and Selden dare threatening someone they should consider as you do as a friend (I'm talking about Fridger) the way they do? Seems to their eyes whatever you will do for Celestia will never being enough to gain their confience and friendship. I find this revolting since Fridger have done a lot for this soft. There is lots of solutions to our problems, but the only way they choose is the worst solution that will without a doubt end with a fork of the soft. I find this just plain stupid and so amazing coming from people who ARE educated...

Okay, now I see the main problem then. The Good Doctor is a very well-educated gentleman who sometimes
has (shall we say) less than moderate patience with newcomers. This should be fairly obvious to all though.

Once you get to know the Good Doctor, however, his remarks (I think) should be fairly understandable when
he is talking to new-comers.

I, for one, do indeed appreciate the doctor's helpful advice, and I do indeed understand his reluctance to
patiently explain the obvious to the same new-comers.

That said, however, Selden (as the moderator of this board) is merely trying to impress upon us the importance
and understanding relative to relating to ALL new-comers. Not everyone really does understand the intricacies
of the computer and all of the associated (and never-ending) updates to the same.

At any rate, I love both of you gentlemen, so please just understand where I'm coming from.
Remember too, that I AM Brain-Dead Bob

[Guckytos]

Let's stop the off topic interlude; I would really like some counter arguments to my last ones...

My dear friend (I hope) and the Good Doctor Schrempp (who I also count as my friend)...

I'm afraid that I really just do not understand why you appear to be so angry at this topic.

What have I missed? Selden is simply asking us to use good manners when responding on
the forum. I, for one, have no problems with this.

Care to PM me with details?

Thanks, Brain-Dead

I think it is now time to throw in my 2 cents.

I am quite surprised by seldens reaction, I must say. In any other forum where software is developed and someone would come with such a question would face the same (or worse) reaction.

And I must say, that it is mostly the same persons who react to newbie questions, and when they are even really naive sometimes (from our point of view), but if they are formulated in a normal way they will get a response that will help them. But someone asking how he replaces an executable file ?!?
Enough of that.

As moderator Selden sure has the right to ban people because of inappropriate behaviour and perhaps, really only perhaps it was good to remind people of rules of the forum.

BUT in no way do I agree to this idea of putting someone that has been temporarely banned in the pillory.
With that I mean that "Banned users" thread. What good should that do? It will only create animosity.

Selden get a grip on yourself too in this matter and remove that topic as soon as possible.

As soon as I see a name in that thread I will be gone for good!

Best regards,

Guckytos

[selden]

Guckytos,

People have been reminded many times about the need to be polite to everyone.
It does not matter if you're writing to a novice who understands nothing or to an old friend, public rudeness is not acceptable.

Sometimes it takes something drastic to make people realize that they've stepped over the line too many times.
I really don't want to have to apply any of the sanctions, but if I have to, I will.

[ElChristou]

Guckytos,

People have been reminded many times about the need to be polite to everyone.
It does not matter if you're writing to a novice who understands nothing or to an old friend, public rudeness is not acceptable.

Sometimes it takes something drastic to make people realize that they've stepped over the line too many times.
I really don't want to have to apply any of the sanctions, but if I have to, I will.

Ok Selden, all the blabla here has been useless, clearly you don't want to see the point of few last active members and I find this scandalous.
In your shoes I would be really ashamed because what you are doing is really not what need this project. Anyway I guess Chris do have his part of responsibility in this topic and I can even imagine that you both have been planning this stuff...
Now, as you guys are saying that if no one dare stay here it's just because of us, I want to remember to the last guys who read this topic that A LOT of people have quit the community at the time of Chris L's multi disappearances without a single word for all the guys (at the time) who where mad about this behavior. Fridger and I have perhaps scared a few useless newbies, now perso I say that MANY valuable people have quit because of Chris. Just a reminder.
Now as I don't like to be threaten like and idiot I'm out of this community and out of this forum untill you change your mind or better you renounce to your moderator statute.

Bye.

[Adirondack]

Hui, what a hot thread.
I do not understand the entire discussion, though.
Everybody wears that cap that fits... No?
This is no attack to anybody but my humble impression.

When I bring down the waste I will get no trouble with my wife.
Ergo: When I obey the forum rules, I will never find my name on the ban list.
Simple, ain't it?

Why therefore this excitement?
Maybe someone gets hold of the wrong end of the stick?

Please calm down again.

Adirondack

[selden]

Gentle folk,

I am very sorry that several people have decided that my reiterating the rules of the Celestia Web forum in such a public and blunt manner was not something they could live with. However, I felt it was essential to make it clear that things could not go on as they were.

I do have to apologize for what must seem to some to be a rather abrupt change from my normally relaxed form of moderating. For me, however, this is something which has been building for a very long time. I simply could no longer stomach the continued abuse of newcomers to the Celestia forum and especially of those who have little or no understanding of how computers and software do what they do.

As a member of a computer support organization, I continuously come into contact with people who do not understand computers or how they work. Patient education usually solves this.
Insulting them and making fun of them do not.

Since I cannot be monitoring the Forum all the time, I have to depend on all forum members acting appropriately. Although it isn't explicitly stated in the Forum's guidelines, to me the statements about being polite include being welcoming to novice strangers. Sadly, some people have shown that they can't or won't do that.

The departure of some of the Forum's senior members is regrettable. However, the rules have to apply to everyone. Seniority and importance to a project, whether perceived or actual, must not be used as a license to mistreat others.

[Chuft-Captain]

This all seems reasonable Selden, and IMO no need for you to apologise.

Your comments and their tone were I believe within the normal bounds of your role as moderator, even if somewhat more blunt than your usual style.

CC

[selden]

CC,

Thanks for your support. It's greatly appreciated.

It has been brought to my attention that in a small community like this one, a public list of who has been banned and why, is easily interpreted as being a "shame list". That had not been my intent, but rather for it to be a public record of my own actions and of those of whoever else might have this responsibility. This kind of list is also common in larger Forums, like BAUT, and I thought it would be appropriate to emulate them.

This would seem to be my mistake, however, and a personal, private reprimand in the form of a temporary ban is more appropriate. I'm removing the Banned topic.

[Cham]

Selden,

the banned list is very common on billboards and forums. I was a member of several large forums in the past and most of them were using a ban list. So this isn't a problem to me.

I fully support your choice as the moderator of a highly emotive forum. So please don't apologize.

[ElChristou]

It has been brought to my attention that in a small community like this one, a public list of who has been banned and why, is easily interpreted as being a "shame list". That had not been my intent, but rather for it to be a public record of my own actions and of those of whoever else might have this responsibility. This kind of list is also common in larger Forums, like BAUT, and I thought it would be appropriate to emulate them.

BAUT Board:

Number of threads: 77,446
Number of posts: 1,446,335
Number of members: 48,595

~5O members ALWAYS logged in

CELESTIA Board:

Number of threads: 12,711
Number of posts: 111,904
Number of members: 7116

~5 bots and 1 member ALWAYS logged in

I really wonder how you came with the idea that one solution for a board could be good for another with such stats...

Selden,

the banned list is very common on billboards and forums. I was a member of several large forums in the past and most of them were using a ban list. So this isn't a problem to me.

I fully support your choice as the moderator of a highly emotive forum. So please don't apologize.

Now sorry guys but I said I was out, but Cham is passing some limits here so I have to explain here why our beloved Cham have chosen to do such post NOW when he have step away from the community supposedly because they were not enough activity and dynamism here.
So the the problem with Cham is that he simply cannot stand anymore either Fridger or I simply because we have emitted some criticism about his work. So basically he is siding Selden here for whatever but GOOD reasons AND THAT IS NOT TOLERABLE BECAUSE THIS IS JUST SABOTAGE. HE DON'T CARE ANYMORE ABOUT CELESTIA SO HE TAKE THE FREEDOM TO POST WHATEVER BULLSHIT TO FAN THE FLAMES A BIT MORE.

Many Tx Cham for your great participation. Try next time to troll in another board. Please don't react over this comment. Tx.

[ANDREA]

I'll try to help the bad memory of a lot of people here.
I remember when I used an angry way (but a lot of people made the same thing before me, even if I don't use this as a justification) to reply to danielj continuous annoying requests and complaints, and I did the same with symastik, using sarcasm against him and his cryptic way of (not) writing posts.
Later on we discovered that the bad way they used for their communications with Celestia community was due to their serious health problems, not to a bad will or a bad education.
I felt ashamed of myself for this, and I think (I hope) that the other people that used my same nasty approach to their queries made the same.
This just to say that when a newbie approaches our forum, no one can judge the reasons why he is posting that way, because we know nothing about him.
Surely we don't know his:
intelligence,
experience,
good will,
age,
nationality,
language,
education,
religion,
culture,
social environment,
preferences,
health,
behaviour problems,
and what else.
In a single word… NOTHING!
He is simply a perfect stranger, knocking at our door and asking for help, nothing more.
But if his wrong approach goes on the same way, the moderator will contact him by PM (and not in the forum) and put him on the right manner or, if he disagrees or doesn’t, to ban him from Celestia Forums.
I invite each of you to think about how many other Celestians you really know, following the above given parameters.
Ten?
Three?
Or perhaps no one?
So I'm absolutely aligned with Selden's way of solving this problem, that moreover has been growing more and more.
I can only criticize Selden because probably this should have been done a lot of time ago.
Rules exist, and have been subscribed by each of us, and they must be followed by everyone, whatever be his contribute to Celestia.
Who doesn’t agree… well, the universe is so big, there is room for anybody, somewhere else, with all our sincere greetings!
But I'll be very unhappy of this, anyway.
Peace, men, please!
Bye

Andrea

[Guckytos]

CC,

Thanks for your support. It's greatly appreciated.

It has been brought to my attention that in a small community like this one, a public list of who has been banned and why, is easily interpreted as being a "shame list". That had not been my intent, but rather for it to be a public record of my own actions and of those of whoever else might have this responsibility. This kind of list is also common in larger Forums, like BAUT, and I thought it would be appropriate to emulate them.

This would seem to be my mistake, however, and a personal, private reprimand in the form of a temporary ban is more appropriate. I'm removing the Banned topic.

Selden,

then for gods sake create a new subforum with the title "Help", link the FAQs there and the README and the HELP, write some stickies with the most often asked questions and make also the following post:

Please read the FAQ and HELP before posting here, also make a fourm search for your problem, often the same questions have been asked and answered before.
If you don't find an answer and you want to get help, state at least which version of Celestia you are using and your operation system, perhaps your system specs. So it will be easier to help you.
If your are having trouble with graphical display, read first in the FAQ about updating your graphics driver. If you already have the latest drivers and the problem is still there, post the results of what Celestia displays under "Help/OpenGL Info" in your post as this also helps us to help you.

For the last "OpenGL Info" it could perhaps even be mandatory. I know some software forums, where you will only get help if you post a failure log created by the software.

And after that new subforum is created, move all the help questions there.

Best regards,

Guckytos

[bh]

I'm still here! I'm with you cc and selden. This, of course, doesn't mean I'm against anyone... although I have noticed a more than elitist attitude.

[ElChristou]

I'll try to help the bad memory of a lot of people here.
I remember when I used an angry way (but a lot of people made the same thing before me, even if I don't use this as a justification) to reply to danielj continuous annoying requests and complaints, and I did the same with symastik, using sarcasm against him and his cryptic way of (not) writing posts.
Later on we discovered that the bad way they used for their communications with Celestia community was due to their serious health problems, not to a bad will or a bad education.
I felt ashamed of myself for this, and I think (I hope) that the other people that used my same nasty approach to their queries made the same.
This just to say that when a newbie approaches our forum, no one can judge the reasons why he is posting that way, because we know nothing about him.
Surely we don't know his:
intelligence,
experience,
good will,
age,
nationality,
language,
education,
religion,
culture,
social environment,
preferences,
health,
behaviour problems,
and what else.
In a single word… NOTHING!
He is simply a perfect stranger, knocking at our door and asking for help, nothing more.
But if his wrong approach goes on the same way, the moderator will contact him by PM (and not in the forum) and put him on the right manner or, if he disagrees or doesn’t, to ban him from Celestia Forums.
I invite each of you to think about how many other Celestians you really know, following the above given parameters.
Ten?
Three?
Or perhaps no one?
So I'm absolutely aligned with Selden's way of solving this problem, that moreover has been growing more and more.
I can only criticize Selden because probably this should have been done a lot of time ago.
Rules exist, and have been subscribed by each of us, and they must be followed by everyone, whatever be his contribute to Celestia.
Who doesn’t agree… well, the universe is so big, there is room for anybody, somewhere else, with all our sincere greetings!

Andrea, again you simplify something a bit more complex.
I've been in same position than you and many others regarding Danielj and Symansky and I have as you apologize for my own reactions to these (at the time) incomprehensive posts and behaviors. But it was half a fault from our side. As I said about this topic, whatever person with whatever physical or psychological problem should have introduce themselves in their very first post to avoid what happened. It would have been a mark of respect for everybody, including them! So this is a particular point and should not be mixed with the many fully capacited persons who just step in with "kind of the hill" attitude...

Now, concerning your perfect stranger knocking at the door, I fully agree with you. Now in whatever situation, job interview, visit to people you don't know etc. you will take a humble and correct attitude. Else you don't have the job and people will have a really bad impression of your person. Is that correct or not?
So about the newbie issue here, to me it's the same. I simply cannot imagine that someone with such a level of knowledge as ChrisL or Fridger (that the kind of people we do need) can be loutish at the point of being rejected after a single post. I guess the probability for such individual to exist is near zero.
All the guys that have been turn out have shown some loutish attitude. Now if you really do believe such people may help, then, ok we do disagree and there is nothing to say anymore.

[ElChristou]

...although I have noticed a more than elitist attitude.

I guess it's for me!
Well Bob, you're right, anyway Celestia is actually an elitist soft, so I guess your comment here is null.
Anyway as a reminder, I'm one of the very few fighting to get a more "popular" soft with better UI better access and all... Tx anyway for your participation!