Celestia is (almost) a failure in my classroom ! :-(

Discuss Celestia's features, adaptations and Addons for use in educational environments
buggs_moran
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Post #21by buggs_moran » 15.11.2006, 03:53

ANDREA wrote: I know very well that the only reason why the boys stay tuned on what they see on the screen is that it looks very nice, filled with music, sounds, images, movies, moving without gaps, so giving the real impression of a space walk, not of a C class ugly movie. :D
This is obviously helped by the addition of my speech, that varies a lot, accordingly with the age of the students (remember, I have students from 6 to 18 years old).


I absolutely agree with the things Andrea stated. When I use Celestia in the classroom, I know exactly where I am going and what I am going to say. Without Frank's guided lessons, a script or a specific task for the boys to lock on to, there is nothing immediately gratifying to a typical human (regardless of age or nationality). In Celestia, once you've seen one star, you've seen them all. That goes for planets too. It's hard to gauge and compare objects. Perhaps a lua script that lets you click "compare to" and select another object which splits the screen and goes to the same distance that you are from the original object. I mean what's comparative planetology without a comparason?

Keep in mind I am talking from the perspective of a vaguely interested student, not myself. I can go for hours on Celestia and have, but I find it most gratifying when I am giving a presentation, be it to kids, students in class, to my parents or other adults. I have been using Celestia as a visual aid more than anything else for years. There is no way of describing astronomical measurement better than with 3d visuals. A movie wouldn't suffice becase you cannot make it DO what you want, and pictures only do so much.

For Celestia to be a true educational 'student' tool, it must contain information, photos, links to websites, etc., all accessable through the interface, not necessarily all contained within the program itself. And, said interface must be, for the purposes of education, easy to use. The lua interface is shaping up nicely. In this regard, what I would like to see in the interface is the ability to add links to files, photos and movies stored locally or on the internet. A Celestia repository of information on different celestial objects of some sort could even be worked out I suppose.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the work that people are doing. I know this is a long term project that will give large paybacks in the future. We just need to keep pushing forward.
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Post #22by ElChristou » 15.11.2006, 11:19

ANDREA wrote:...what they see on the screen is that it looks very nice, filled with music, sounds, images, movies, moving without gaps, so giving the real impression of a space walk, not of a C class ugly movie...

I agree on you line of argument about making the show much exiting, but... not about this particular point; do reality shows us colorfull nebulaes? do reality give us some strange melodies to heard? is space and exiting place for the senses? what I find interesting with Celestia is that it gives a pretty good "real" impression of space, it's huge and there is almost nothing in it! Distance are gigantic, bodies are so small, no false color nebulaes, well the contrary of almost all kind of SF movies...

I suppose we have all this false idea of space because of SF, artist throw decades etc, the result is that if you show reality to kids it's not credible to their eyes, so it become boring. I think this situation is the result of ignorance... and should be reversed as soon as possible.

IMO and entire line of argument should be create by educator to give to the next generations a better idea of the reality of space and to fight this misleading iconography...

This is a hard task and Celestia will really help the day in which some wavelenght rendering will be available, showing what IS reality (what our eyes can see and what they cannot, what our ears can heard and what not (radio frequency etc...))...

buggs_moran wrote:...For Celestia to be a true educational 'student' tool, it must contain information, photos, links to websites, etc., all accessable through the interface, not necessarily all contained within the program itself...


Right, now it's up to you educators to organize yourselves (there is now a forum just for you) and create this data base; once it's done, and entire edu pack (including datas and Lua interface) could be realeased and that would be great!
Now many things should be discuss, from the line of argumentation for example to Andrea's point of using Celestia not in a lab but for a show;
Are you ready guys? :wink:
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Post #23by t00fri » 15.11.2006, 12:51

ElChristou wrote:
... do reality shows us colorfull nebulaes? do reality give us some strange melodies to heard? is space and exiting place for the senses? what I find interesting with Celestia is that it gives a pretty good "real" impression of space, it's huge and there is almost nothing in it! Distance are gigantic, bodies are so small, no false color nebulaes, well the contrary of almost all kind of SF movies...

I suppose we have all this false idea of space because of SF, artist throw decades etc, the result is that if you show reality to kids it's not credible to their eyes, so it become boring. I think this situation is the result of ignorance... and should be reversed as soon as possible.
...
:wink:


Here I agree emphatically. If it takes music, incredibly exaggerated DSO colors and SF-style spaceships to get youngsters interested in the Universe, then there is something wrong...somewhere.

Of course, I have my very concrete private views about what is wrong ;-)

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Post #24by ANDREA » 15.11.2006, 14:57

I agree with El Christou, I well know that the real Universe in not as shown in Hollywood?€™s Sci-Fi movies, it has dim colours, terrible distances, bodies very similar each one, obviously no music or sounds, only an empty, cold, immense uncoloured thing.
But do you think that this is the right way to gather boy?€™s attention on it?
Isn?€™t it worth to make a graphical adulteration of the Universe, i.e. adding all that stuff where it?€™s nothing, and in this way awaking the interest of young minds? :wink:
I?€™m 62, and I still feel the fashion of what?€™s around us, with it?€™s incredible distances, masses, energies, violent monsters, but when I was a boy I lived in an environment where Space and Universe were mysterious and fascinating, only filled by unknown, and I?€™ve been lucky enough to maintain this astonishment for all of this.
IMHO media, movies and all that stuff that?€™s around our children, forced them to loose the admiration for the unknown, reducing everything out there to a gigantic videogame. :cry:
Obviously I don?€™t like this, but as we say in Italy: ?€?If you cannot win your enemy, become his friend!?€
"Something is always better than nothing!"
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Post #25by rthorvald » 15.11.2006, 15:52

t00fri wrote:Here I agree emphatically. If it takes music, incredibly exaggerated DSO colors and SF-style spaceships to get youngsters interested in the Universe, then there is something wrong...somewhere


They (not only youngsters: adults, too) are used to "sexy" GUIs. It is a problem of expectation: if this is about space, it should look like Star Trek, shouldn??t it? So a screen totally devoid of any visual input mechanism at all - not to mention the lack of a cocpit - is a letdown if you aren??t already into astronomy.

This is because Celestia have the feel of being an entertainment package without being implemented as one. This is largely due to the Motherlode and all the fan sites (like my own), i think.

That aside, i have children that are much younger than Cham??s students. They have no trouble navigating Celestia at all. I suspect Cham??s challenge with his students would be solved with a standardized contents package that is optimized for his lab??s computers more than any changes to the interface, but some of the posters in this thread also points to something important - that Celestia is for enthusiasts, not the general public, as the UI isn??t rigged towards the general public.

It might be that it would be useful to have some sort of toolbar that could ease people into the workings of the program. Because expectations is, like it or not, important to be aware of in the UI dev process if the program is to be for everybody.

Personally i think ElChristou??s scetch is a little too intrusive. Something more minimalistic - say like the address bar in Firefox - would be better. A tiny strip with the input console integrated, Forward/back buttons, and a lever for setting speed and date. And a button to toggle the entire thing on/off. If the user aren??t able to pick up from there and explore the menus to get the rest, i suspect he won??t get much use out of the program anyway... But it would "cater to the masses" without compromising the current design philosophy too much, and it would probably help in a classroom, where time (and hence patience) is limited, to have such a visible "portal" with the most important commands, as such visual cues would make it easier to talk a student through a spesific action.

So: if there should be a toolbar at all, a browser-like scheme would fit very well, since Celestia *is* a browser...

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Post #26by t00fri » 15.11.2006, 16:30

Well....

from my own perspective there are two different kinds of comments I can make:

1) My personal experience,
----------------------------------
...how I became motivated for astronomy and physics when I was a boy.

That was pretty low-tech throughout!

My first telescope I built myself from a 2 inch single lens and a 1 m long cardboard tube at an age of 10. Astronomy became my great hobby as a boy and remained to be a favorite until today. In the course of time I ground several (up to 8 inch sized) mirrors as well...

Another very important contribution to my motivation for physics/astronomy were those innumerous nights with my physics/math teacher on the rooftop of our school behind a refractor. Far more important than the actual sights were those endless discussions with him about the Universe and the limits of knowledge that we have. The latter in particular arose my curiosity tremendously and curiosity is the "fuel" for becoming a scientist!

2) My experience with students.
----------------------------------------

The students I am supervising today are graduate students throughout (Diplome & mostly PhD) in theoretical particle physics/particle cosmology/astroparticle physics. At first, it might seem that here the matter is almost trivial: they have decided already to become physicists, so superficially it might seem that further motivating efforts are barely necessary.

To the contrary!

Again here we have no "eye catching" colorful "medial weapons" to help us. In the course of a 3 year lasting theoretical PhD thesis, there are always times when the students get stuck on some tough calculation and eventually start doubting whether they made the right decision to become a theoretical physicist. ;-) .

However, once more, the same recipe has proven most helpful that is so effective with youngsters as well:

The stimulation of people's curiosity (for the results from projects they are involved in)!

++++++++++++++++++++
My life-long experience has always been that curiosity is the crucial factor. Moreover that driving curiosity does NOT tolerate too much distraction in form of entertaining action. In fact, the latter tends to kill most effectively people's initiative to do something by themselves! The second crucial factor is to teach the students always about the limits of our knowledge, in line of course with the great achievements that mankind has gained in natural science.
++++++++++++++++++++

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Post #27by ElChristou » 15.11.2006, 17:12

t00fri wrote:...Of course, I have my very concrete private views about what is wrong...

You should tell us, it's always intersting to see different point of view...


ANDREA wrote:I agree with El Christou, I well know that the real Universe in not as shown in Hollywood?€™s Sci-Fi movies, it has dim colours, terrible distances, bodies very similar each one, obviously no music or sounds, only an empty, cold, immense uncoloured thing.
But do you think that this is the right way to gather boy?€™s attention on it?...

What I mean above is that something should be done to reverse this general idea of space as shown in SF; of course because youngs people are expecting such effects, using them is the best way to fix their attention, but a real argumentation should be create to "teach" them that "this" is not the reality. Teaching facts based on scientific reality within a ficticious frame will feed those beliefs...

I suppose an entire speech could be articulated around the topic "Space as seen by the humankind", begining in history with the first astronome, following time to modern age, even showing some parts of SF movies...

Once the argumentation on the why of such images is done (at this stage the student should be able to understand that reality is else), the speech could go on in a more "elegant" frame (I mean something based on reality); then one would have to show scientific facts, in a few words to really begin his teatching...
Off course, a nice classical music in background will always help, showing some wawelenght filtrered images and so on is ok, keeping in mind one should always explain the nature of the images (IR, UV etc...)

Ok, I agree this is not an easy task, but I suppose it's the only way to end with this bored attitude in front of reality, there is so much to explain about nature that one should be able to find a way to keep them tuned even in a more realistic frame...

ANDREA wrote:...BTW, the goto command with its superluminal speed IS a Sci-Fi addition to the scientific Universe of Cellestia.

I'm not sure it's a SF effect at all; I suppose if you travel that fast, you will see this effect with your own eyes... no fantasy here (or I'm wrong?)

rthorvald wrote:...Personally i think ElChristou??s scetch is a little too intrusive...


You're right, but I imagine this like the selection tab, it will appear from the right border of the screen when the mouse go close to it; once the mouse goes out the panel, the tab should diseapear... We will see if this is possible via Lua...
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Post #28by ElChristou » 15.11.2006, 17:22

t00fri wrote:...
++++++++++++++++++++
My life-long experience has always been that curiosity is the crucial factor. Moreover that driving curiosity does NOT tolerate too much distraction in form of entertaining action. In fact, the latter tends to kill most effectively people's initiative to do something by themselves! The second crucial factor is to teach the students always about the limits of our knowledge, in line of course with the great achievements that mankind has gained in natural science.
++++++++++++++++++++
...


Fridger, you are dealing here with people of a certain level, don't forget the whole bunch of arguments here are for kids to teen, where one must teach them the very basis...
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Post #29by Vincent » 15.11.2006, 17:47

Here's the advancement of the Lua Edu Tools version suggested by ElChristou :

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All the currently displayed button are functional...
@+
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Post #30by rthorvald » 15.11.2006, 17:48

ElChristou wrote:you are dealing here with people of a certain level, don't forget the whole bunch of arguments here are for kids to teen, where one must teach them the very basis...


But kids are naturally curious and like to explore. This just have to be rewarding in some way, which Celestia is if the material they have to work with is well made. That??s a task for the teacher and the Add-On designer, not the program... As long as the UI is accessible, that is.

Anyhow, i think that if we are to have a graphical interface on top of the shortcuts, it??s purpose, theme and "look and feel" should be studied extensively before any implementation: if it is not simple and intuitive, it will be an obstacle instead of a crutch. This is very difficult to do right, as evidenced by most software out there. I know, i work with it every day.

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Post #31by ElChristou » 15.11.2006, 18:19

rthorvald wrote:...Anyhow, i think that if we are to have a graphical interface on top of the shortcuts, it??s purpose, theme and "look and feel" should be studied extensively before any implementation: if it is not simple and intuitive, it will be an obstacle instead of a crutch. This is very difficult to do right, as evidenced by most software out there. I know, i work with it every day...


Sure, the actual proposal was done having in mind simplicity because the Lua stuff is pretty new; now such discussion is open of course. Proposition, cristism are welcome...
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Post #32by Vincent » 15.11.2006, 18:40

ElChristou wrote:
rthorvald wrote:...Anyhow, i think that if we are to have a graphical interface on top of the shortcuts, it??s purpose, theme and "look and feel" should be studied extensively before any implementation: if it is not simple and intuitive, it will be an obstacle instead of a crutch. This is very difficult to do right, as evidenced by most software out there. I know, i work with it every day...

Sure, the actual proposal was done having in mind simplicity because the Lua stuff is pretty new; now such discussion is open of course. Proposition, cristism are welcome...
Actually, I was waiting for this kind of discussion before starting working on ElChristou's version :

Vincent wrote:So, if everybody agrees on the content and the layout, it can be done very quickly...

So, what shall we do :
1- Go on and build a beta version, to make users able to test it. Then we will bring some possible changes.
2- Discuss about the layout and the content before going further in the code...
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Post #33by t00fri » 15.11.2006, 18:46

ElChristou wrote:
t00fri wrote:...
++++++++++++++++++++
My life-long experience has always been that curiosity is the crucial factor. Moreover that driving curiosity does NOT tolerate too much distraction in form of entertaining action. In fact, the latter tends to kill most effectively people's initiative to do something by themselves! The second crucial factor is to teach the students always about the limits of our knowledge, in line of course with the great achievements that mankind has gained in natural science.
++++++++++++++++++++
...

Fridger, you are dealing here with people of a certain level, don't forget the whole bunch of arguments here are for kids to teen, where one must teach them the very basis...


Christophe,

as Cham specified above , his students are up to 18 years old. I think correspondingly it's something like highschool level. At least in Europe, people dont get their bac if they don't have a certain level of knowledge in natural science! Also Frank's students range from boys to "senior" teens if I correctly remember.

As I tried to explain, the crucial task is to raise curiosity at ANY level. My early curiosity for the Universe arose at the age of 10, for example.

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Post #34by ElChristou » 15.11.2006, 19:06

t00fri wrote:...as Cham specified above , his students are up to 18 years old. I think correspondingly it's something like highschool level. At least in Europe, people dont get their bac if they don't have a certain level of knowledge in natural science!...


Yes, their are supposed to... :roll:

t00fri wrote:As I tried to explain, the crucial task is to raise curiosity at ANY level. My early curiosity for the Universe arose at the age of 10, for example...


Right. Here lies the difficulty in front the quantity of images from all sorts that litteraly kill the imagination and curioisity of the kids... :?
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Post #35by t00fri » 15.11.2006, 19:27

I notice since some time that an exceedingly large proportion of information about the various space missions by NASA takes place in form of VIDEOS with some narrator... No space left for people's own imagination etc. No time left to RE-THINK what one has just absorbed a minute ago...

Does this mean that some majority of the american population would not be willing anymore to absorb non-narrated, non-medial/video information? In other words is READING "OUT" in America?

The most absurd variation of this theme is the experience in bookshops where I almost don't find books anymore that I could READ. Books are sold in form of narrated multimedia DVD's. What a horror.

So our teachers in the forum seem to suggest that generating interest in science these days requires such multimedial smalltalk?

Wow...

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Post #36by Cham » 15.11.2006, 19:56

Just a small correction :

Andrea stated that his students are UP TO 18 years old.

My students are in the 17 years (absolute minimum) to 20 years category, sometimes even older. My astronomy students aren't in science. They're all coming from other branches (administration, cinema industry, police formation, arts, etc). They hate maths ! They are unable to do correctly simple conversions like, say, 3 LY to meters ! This is part of my astronomy courses. They also have to find the light travel time between some objects (from our sun to Jupiter, for example).

Here's another simple example I've asked in some "practical work" with Celestia : Find the location of Cassini, the 23 decembre 2005, and find the distance (in km) between Earth and that probe. Then find the time it would take (in years) to an imaginary car moving straight from Earth to that probe position, if the car moves at the constant velocity of 100 km/hr. This is a trivial maths problem. The students are able to find the solution, but they say it's a very "tough" problem !!! Some are even totally frightened by the scientific notation (powers of ten) !

Another example of a "practical work" with Celestia : testing Kepler's third law : T^2 = a^3, for several asteroids and comets. They are unable to find the period of revolution "T" (in years) and the semi-axis "a" (in AU) using Celestia. Currently, Celestia don't show those informations and you need to do some simple experiments to find "T" and "a". It could help a lot if Celestia was showing the revolution period and the semi-axis in the info corner (so, will we have an ultra-verbose mode, Chris ? I think this is more important than spice girls paths :twisted: :wink: )
"Well! I've often seen a cat without a grin", thought Alice; "but a grin without a cat! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in all my life!"

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Post #37by t00fri » 15.11.2006, 20:01

Cham wrote:Just a small correction :

Andrea stated that his students are UP TO 18 years old.

My students are in the 17 years (absolute minimum) to 20 years category, sometimes even older. My astronomy students aren't in science. They're all coming from other branches (administration, cinema industry, police formation, arts, etc). They hate maths !


Cham,

but then your school must be something like an "evening school" rather than a regular highschool ? Such schools are probably statistically not all that relevant compared to highschools or gymnasiums in Europe?

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Post #38by Cham » 15.11.2006, 20:11

Fridger,

I'm teaching in an institution called a "CEGEP", here in Quebec. It's a huge standard college, at a level between secondary school and the university level. In Quebec, all students going to some university must go to a CEGEP first. A CEGEP is the equivalent of the first year of university in the U.S. and in Europe. I'm not just teaching astronomy : I also teach physics (mechanics, electricity and magnetism, wave theory and modern physics) to science students. Those physics courses are the equivalent of the first year of the undergraduate university level, in the U.S.
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Post #39by t00fri » 15.11.2006, 20:16

Cham wrote:Fridger,

I'm teaching in an institution called a "CEGEP", here in Quebec. It's a huge standard college, at a level between secondary school and the university level. In Quebec, all students going to some university must go to a CEGEP first. A CEGEP is the equivalent of the first year of university in the U.S. and in Europe. I'm not just teaching astronomy : I also teach physics (mechanics, electricity and magnetism, wave theory and modern physics) to science students. Those physics courses are equivalent of the first year of the undergraduate university level, in the U.S.


Aha,

that's interesting. But don't you have the regular type of highschools that are finished with something like the 'bac' (French terminology) and thereafter entitle to studying at a University/College??

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Post #40by ElChristou » 15.11.2006, 20:26

t00fri wrote:...So our teachers in the forum seem to suggest that generating interest in science these days requires such multimedial smalltalk?

Wow...


Unfortunatly this seems to be a reality...
As Andrea said, one cannot fight against this kind of fact, one must use it; what I add is that using it one should try to correct all those false ideas before teaching some laws or other interesting situation...
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