Celestia is (almost) a failure in my classroom ! :-(

Discuss Celestia's features, adaptations and Addons for use in educational environments
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Cham M
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Post #41by Cham » 15.11.2006, 20:29

t00fri wrote:[that's interesting. But don't you have the regular type of highschools that are finished with something like the 'bac' (French terminology) and thereafter entitle to studying at a University/College??

Bye Fridger


Yes, the "DEC" (the name of the CEGEP diploma) is equivalent of the "bac" in France, but I'm not sure of the strict equivalence. I think the DEC is a bit an higher level than the "bac" in France. In Quebec, a "BAC" is the university diploma. In brief, I could resume a complete education path in Quebec like this :

-Primary education.
-Secondary diploma (called "secondary V diploma").
-Collegial diploma (called "DEC"), in a "CEGEP" institution.
-University diploma (called a "BAC").
-Master degree (MSc disploma, in sciences)
-Doctoral thesis (PhD)
-Post doctoral studies, etc...

Students finishing their secondary V diploma are around 17 years old. So in a CEGEP, they are 17 to 19 years old. Normally, they get to the university level at the age of 19-20 years.
Last edited by Cham on 15.11.2006, 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
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t00fri
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Post #42by t00fri » 15.11.2006, 20:29

Cham wrote:...
They also have to find the light travel time between some objects (from our sun to Jupiter, for example).
...


cham,

but does this mean that your students have to switch off Celestia? Since Celestia prints that info out after hitting the '?' key.

Suppose I want to know the light travel time between Earth and Jupiter at a particular date, I goto Earth and select Jupiter, then hit '?' Printout is: 52min 55.1 sec ;-)

Bye Fridger
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Post #43by Vincent » 15.11.2006, 20:31

t00fri wrote:So our teachers in the forum seem to suggest that generating interest in science these days requires such multimedial smalltalk?

Wow...

Bye Fridger


IMHO, it really depends on the kids you're teaching to...
The curiosity is not something you get or not when you're born. It depends a lot on the environment in which you grew up. Unfortunately, for children who grow up with silly TV programs as the only single cultural ( 8O ) reference, educators can't nearly do nothing... It would be really different if we were leaving in a world where the only aims of politics was not to make children become future good consumers...

So, what can we do ? For my part, I think the best thing is to vary the educationnal aids. You can start by getting and confronting the kids' representation about the subject. It can be done via a discussion, drawings,... Then, a short video, or even a scientific text, can introduce the scientific point of view about the subject (20 min max). After that, students/pupils can manipulate some tools (e., g. Celestia) and try to answer a serie of questions adapted to their level.

Then, they often find the questions tom much difficult because they're not used to dive into a problem when the solution is not obvious... That's because many of them have only learned some 'recipes' to apply, whereas they should be confronted since elementary school to open-ended mathematical problems.

So, I don't think that pupils/students are entirely responsible of their lack of knowledge and of ability to think. They might just adapt their behaviour to the world in which they're growing up...
Last edited by Vincent on 15.11.2006, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Cham M
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Post #44by Cham » 15.11.2006, 20:37

t00fri wrote:but does this mean that your students have to switch off Celestia? Since Celestia prints that info out after hitting the '?' key.

Suppose I want to know the light travel time between Earth and Jupiter at a particular date, I goto Earth and select Jupiter, then hit '?' Printout is: 52min 55.1 sec ;-)


Students had to calculate the time travel, with their hand calculator. I didn't showed that Celestia function (only the basic keyboard shortcuts). I may change this for the next semester.
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Post #45by t00fri » 15.11.2006, 20:48

Vincent wrote:
t00fri wrote:So our teachers in the forum seem to suggest that generating interest in science these days requires such multimedial smalltalk?

Wow...

Bye Fridger

IMHO, it really depends on the kids you're teaching to...
The curiosity is not something you get or not when you're born. It depends a lot on the environment in which you grew up. Unfortunately, for children who grow up with silly TV programs as the only single cultural ( 8O ) reference, educators can't nearly do nothing...


Indeed, silly TV and the misbelief that reading is 'uncool' do a lot of damage. That's where the parents have to get in, in principle. But if the parents lead a similarly 'silly life', there is not much one can hope for. Then our society is to blame, unfortunately.

Why is "multimedial smalltalk" so 'destructive? Well it's a bit like with SEX ;-) . The curiosity for science and SEX both happen mostly in the brain...We need imagination and creativity for both ;-) . These crucial prerequisites are brutally killed off by multimedial shows that leave no other alternative than 'watching'. A totally receptive activity.

Most of us must be familiar with this activity-killing experience: you switch on the TV to watch something particular. This gets you into some sort of lethargy, you zap on to watch the subsequent program, then the next one and so on. After a while one feels even too lazy to go and get another beer from the fridge ;-)

Bye Fridger
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Post #46by ElChristou » 15.11.2006, 21:01

Vincent wrote:...Of course, I don't say that pupils/students are not entirely responsible of their lack of knowledge and of ability to think. I'm just saying that they might just adapt their behaviour to the world in which they're growing up...


I suppose that talking about the way our sociaties are done is a huge topic and perhaps don't have a place in the Celestia board, now I would love to see a new thread (sticky why not) dedicated to "the best way to teach astronomy nowadays" in which you (educators) could find the mechanism to fight against the problems we are discussing here; not only such a thread could help present educators but could become a must for all educators in the branch because of our favorite tool...
Just behind such a thread, another one dedicated to discuss datas for an edu pack would be wonderfull...
No one want to make a try? :idea:
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Post #47by rthorvald » 15.11.2006, 21:20

t00fri wrote:Indeed, silly TV and the misbelief that reading is 'uncool' do a lot of
damage. That's where the parents have to get in, in principle. But if the
parents lead a similarly 'silly life', there is not much one can hope for.
Then our society is to blame, unfortunately.
Right... But what do you expect from a culture where children are
actually discouraged from learning to read when they start first
grade because that would leave a percentage of the other pupils behind?
(Read: generate more work for the school) - i am not joking.

t00fri wrote:you zap on to watch the subsequent program, then the
next one and so on. After a while one feels even too lazy to go and get
another beer from the fridge ;-)

And if *that* warning sign won??t wake people up, nothing will :mrgreen:
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Post #48by buggs_moran » 15.11.2006, 21:54

t00fri wrote:you zap on to watch the subsequent program, then the
next one and so on. After a while one feels even too lazy to go and get
another beer from the fridge ;-)


There's beer in the fridge? I'll be right back...
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Post #49by tech2000 » 15.11.2006, 22:21

buggs_moran wrote:
t00fri wrote:you zap on to watch the subsequent program, then the
next one and so on. After a while one feels even too lazy to go and get
another beer from the fridge ;-)

There's beer in the fridge? I'll be right back...


LOL

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re

Post #50by John Van Vliet » 17.11.2006, 00:59

hi as to" the best way to teach astronomy nowadays"
?????????????????????
i have NO idia ,at 12 i was taking an acredited lecture series (at U of M in AnnArbor -By Jim Lodin, the department head)
He got a kick out of me because i asked more inteligent questions than the older students

I was Not the norm.

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Re: re

Post #51by rthorvald » 18.11.2006, 19:50

john Van Vliet wrote:He got a kick out of me because i asked more inteligent questions than the older students

Hah. In grade school, i regularily got complaints sent to my parents because i "asked too many questions". Apparently, it disrupted the lectures. My mother gave the stuff to me a couple of years ago, and it was pretty upsetting to read it all. I was angry for the whole day afterwards.

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Post #52by John Van Vliet » 18.11.2006, 22:35

I just dont know thease days
an example ..
my daughter ( 16) is more intrested in myspace and xanga , and dose a good job at posting videos and music , and locking me out [--almost
--wink wink--] . but is clueless about windows im and cant even be bothered to run spy bot search and destroy or even to UPDATE clam av that i gave her .


so it's no wonder that us old foggies are pulling our hair out

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Post #53by fsgregs » 23.11.2006, 04:36

WHEW! You guys really know how to debate topics. :wink:

My experience with Celestia in the classroom is excellent. I teach up to 180 high school kids at a time from ages 14 to 18, boys and girls. I conduct courses in both General Earth Science, and a dedicated elective course in Astronomy for juniors and seniors.

When I first tried Celestia in school, I wanted the kids to be able to use it personally ... at individual computer stations. I did not just want to use it myself on one computer and simply project it to them via LCD projector. What fun is that for them???

I feel that science should be "FUN". To us scientists, it seems obvious that science is fun. However, to a 15 year old girl in a high school with 3,000 students, studying about the moons of Jupiter is not exactly ... EXCITING! No matter how you present it, a moon is a moon!!! ... to a 15 year old girl :? So what if the moon has volcanoes!!

As a result, if Celestia was to be used in my classroom to teach Astronomy, I HAD to get the kids into space personally ... on their own computers ... riding a spaceship of some kind ... visiting astronomical places AND doing something when they got there!

The initial computers used in my school in 2003 had Intel integrated graphics (pentium IV HP computers running Windows 98 ). Celestia 1.3.0 ran OK on them, but the frame rate was a bit sluggish. Since my school prided itself in being a "state-on-the-art" facility, I was able to talk my school principal into investing $3,000 to buy 30 Nvidia FX 5600 video cards. I put them into 30 lab computers myself. Those cards made all the difference in the world. With them, I am able to run Celestia 1.4.1 with over 1.5 GB of add-ons. Although the frame rates are dropping fast as new add-ons are used (down to 6 fps in some cases), I can still use Celestia to take these kids anywhere I wish.

You might wish to know that there is a LOT of technology grant money out there. Companies all over Earth are scrambling to have their names associated with some worthwhile educational project. Getting one of those companies to buy your school a few dozen video cards is not that hard. It just takes a bit of work in writing the grant.

One we had the cards installed, I tried letting my students explore on their own. It was a total failure. They zoomed around in space for 30 minutes or so, did very little actual work, and lost interest in Celestia (no explosions, sounds, animation, etc.). Instead, they just began to talk to each other/socialize. They were used to video games, and Celestia is no video game.

I realized that to utilize Celestia's true potential, I needed a tightly controlled, choreographed journey that allowed them to fly through Celestia space, but in a direction and at the pace I wanted them to go. I needed an easy way to convey what controls and keys to push. I needed to show them exciting things. I needed to tell a story as we went. I needed to TEACH them astronomical facts along the way. I needed to give them a detailed worksheet to complete ... to record facts and keep them busy. I needed their minds engaged at all times ... to minimize socializing and talking ... preferably by requiring them to read something!

In short, what I realized I needed was a written "Activity" document ... a written guide that would take them through the complete Solar System, or on a trip through the life cycle of stars ... or back in time to watch the formation of Earth and Moon ... or a voyage of discovery to see the many spacecraft that we have launched into space.

Obviously, these trips required add-ons ... lots of them. They required an enormous amount of work to design and write. Where does one go in space? What do we see when we get there? What questions do we pose for the kids? Is there any action ... explosions ... sound effects ...??? What add-ons are available? If one does not exist, can such an add-on be created?

The result of this effort are the 12 educational journeys available on the motherlode education page. In my experience, my students honestly ... (I'm not just saying this .... ) LOVE THEM!!!! They are actually engaged for hours at a time in a dark room ... flying through space. They read the document, learn thousands of space facts, complete worksheets ... experience the universe. They get to see their own spaceship from the exterior and interior. They hear spaceship sounds, rockets and warp drive engines. I even have wind blowing on Earth and Jupiter, and volcanoes rumbling on Io. In short, they are engaged ... in a kind of astronomical video game! It WORKS!

I use some special tricks to keep them that way. One trick is music. I stream in a space music radio station into the computer room at all times. It plays ethereal music in the background. I play it quite loud. That makes the kids a LOT less talkative. It reminds them of being in a movie theater with music playing in the background. They don't talk at all when the music is playing. Rather, they really get into it!

Another trick is to take them to the best places Celestia can offer. To do that, the Activites use over 100 add-ons, with over 400 cel:urls. Many of the add-ons were designed for me by forum members specifically for this educational use.

A third trick is to remind them that without Celestia, they would be listening to me lecture :wink: My, how that brings them back to reality!!!

A fourth trick is to use the written Activity documents to teach the kids what controls to press. As they keep reading the same instruction over and over (press the "A" key to accelerate), they do slowly learn over 40 key commands.

In summary, Celestia can be a spectacular teaching tool. In fact, it is the most amazing and engaging educational tool I can imagine. Without it, I would stop teaching Astronomy.

FYI

Frank

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Post #54by AquaRegia » 08.12.2006, 16:07

Frank, you are my idol!

I am a casual Celestia user and high school Earth Science (also Chemistry) teacher, and I have been using Celestia in the classroom for my astronomy unit for a few years. I use a single PC with a projector because a) that's what I have and b) I figured the key command UI would present too steep a learning curve for the average 15-year-old. I look forward to exploring your educational journeys - they may be something I can apply directly in my classes.

I am happy to see that Celestia is being actively developed to improve its effectiveness as an educational tool.

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Post #55by AZ_Cowboy » 29.01.2007, 23:35

Kid's find Celestia hard to use?

This is unbelieveable, really. Kid's that age are so in-tune with the latest on-line gaming, I find it hard to swallow that they failed your class because of that.

I have never taught astronomy, but, perhaps it was the curriculum. Maybe it was TOO simple. Those kids at least are familiar with STAR TREK and the like. They got the basics.

Have them try My 'Great Skyscapes' post here. Sunrises on Vulcan are pretty kewl!

Have them create their own systems! Do it as homework and have them record it to an AVI so the school computers don't have to work so hard.

good luck!

:)
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Post #56by Johaen » 30.01.2007, 00:18

AZ_Cowboy wrote:Those kids at least are familiar with STAR TREK and the like.


They are? I'm 23, and I know I'm not.
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Post #57by AZ_Cowboy » 30.01.2007, 17:39

I'm a little unsure what you mean, Johaen. Are you saying that you are not familiar with STAR TREK; that it's a television program whose theme is space?

I guess if you're not interested in astronomy then you probably never heard of it. But then why would you take an astronomy class? See, I'm confused...
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Post #58by t00fri » 30.01.2007, 18:50

AZ_Cowboy wrote:....
I guess if you're not interested in astronomy then you probably never heard of it. But then why would you take an astronomy class? See, I'm confused...


Astronomy and Star Trek or whatever this is called have VERY little in common.

I only know roughly what Star Trek was, yet I am involved in one way or another ;-) with astronomy/astrophysics/ cosmology since I was a kid.

Bye Fridger
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Post #59by Christophe » 30.01.2007, 19:50

t00fri wrote:Astronomy and Star Trek or whatever this is called have VERY little in common.


Science and science fiction are not such a world apart. People interested in one usualy have some interest in the other. Don't tell me you never read any Jules Verne novel Fridger, I'd be disappointed.

Now, I give you that whether Star Trek qualifies as (good) science fiction can be subject to debate...
Christophe

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Post #60by t00fri » 30.01.2007, 20:12

Christophe wrote:
t00fri wrote:Astronomy and Star Trek or whatever this is called have VERY little in common.

Science and science fiction are not such a world apart. People interested in one usualy have some interest in the other. Don't tell me you never read any Jules Verne novel Fridger, I'd be disappointed.

Now, I give you that whether Star Trek qualifies as (good) science fiction can be subject to debate...


Christophe,

but that's just the crucial difference. With Star Trek somebody made a lot of money. But as to the quality of that TV saga...well let's not discuss it. Of course, I read plenty of Jules Verne, H.G Wells and lots of others. But that's /literature/...

But remember, the claim above was that people not being fond of Star Trek are probably not on "good terms" with astronomy etc ;-)

Also in Europe, kids used to look less TV ;-)

Honestly, when I was adolescent, looking quietly at some galaxy or planet through my various selfmade telescopes, this was orders of magnitude more thrilling than watching an American TV series!!

Bye Fridger
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