Celestia UI redesign

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chris
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Post #121by chris » 11.02.2008, 18:37

rthorvald wrote:
chris wrote:all the minor moons of Jupiter and Saturn clutter both the 3D view (when orbits are enabled) and the GUI, and it's only on rare occasions that you actually want to see them. My current plan is to add a new "minormoon" category and organize the UI so that they appear in a separate category from the more significant moons.

Why not use a slider (like the one for stars) that changes the prominence of the orbit lines?

For example, the smaller the moon, the more transparent is its orbit lines. Hook this up to a slider that defines how much transparency is allowed in general, and let everything else be a percentage of that...

If you also added a checkbox to invert it (so that the smaller the moon, the more prominent its orbit), then the user will have pretty good control over what he wants to see.


My concern is that the difference between a 'major' and 'minor' moon is rather subjective. Phobos and Deimos are primary examples: they're tiny, and automatic schemes would tend to not prominently show their orbits. We could set the opacity based on the relative size of the moon and the planet, but I fear this would still result in inappropriately faint orbits in some cases. For example, Mimas is much smaller than Titan--I fear it would be a very delicate balancing act to get reasonable default rendering of orbits, and the user would end up having to tweak the slider at each planet.

--Chris

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Post #122by Cham » 11.02.2008, 19:37

Just my two cents worth opinion :

I must agree with ElChristou about the feel of Celestia's space : we need to preserve the full integrity of the general window without adding palettes and "floating" layers (or windows) on it. Keep it free, or else, it will be a total mess. At least, ALL Windows/palettes/info layers should be completelly and *instantaneously* removable at once, using an *easy to use and to remember* key shortcut (Photoshop style), like we currently can do it with the "V" keyboard shortcut for the info layer. The current Time/date, Browser and Finder windows can already be called and removed using a simple keyboard shortcut (command-T, command-B, command-F on a Mac, and command-W to close a window). Why change this ?

Really, I don't understand much the need for this discussion about redesigning Celestia's UI. I think the current way is already pretty good (maybe it just needs some adjustements here and there, but that's all).

I may be conservative, but I already love the way Celestia 1.5 is doing its job right now, so I don't see why we should change the way we are used to. Maybe we could add an "ultraverbose" mode to show yet more information (coordinates, temperature, etc), but PLEASE NO MORE windows or floating palettes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think we really need them, unless Chris plan to add some major functions to Celestia's capabilities.

In brief, I think we should keep the current UI organisation we already know, with some adjustements here and there (refinements to the browser, uniformisation of the current windows, among the various OS versions, etc).

Ok, maybe I'm just conservative, after all. :roll:
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Post #123by selden » 11.02.2008, 19:54

Cham,

A problem is that right now Celestia has at least 5 different user interfaces (Windows, MacOS, KDE, Gnome, gtk) Each GUI has to be maintained separately, which is a waste of limited resources. The intent is to have a single user interface for all systems so only one GUI has to be maintained.
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Post #124by ElChristou » 11.02.2008, 20:48

chris wrote:...Perhaps for drag and drop between tools? Suppose that I have the orbit plotting tool open and want to select an object to plot. I could either type in the object name or drag it from the solar system browser. Perhaps the eclipse finder could work in a similar way.


Whaow, that sounds rather complex...

I begin to see two directions on the way the user may interact with Celestia.

One (with all those new ideas) seems to lead to an interaction via panels/tabs/bars and not anymore with the GL window itself.

The second could be more interaction with the GL windows specially with contextual menu.

I'm wondering if this direction could not be interesting...

Example (without much thoughts): You right-click on Saturn and a context menu in several part appear. One part could be related to orbits/labels/markers, with the possibility to interact with the selected body BUT ALSO why not with it's direct parents/childrens...
So in the case of Saturn we could find the possibility to display orbits/labels of it's whole system, navigate to the "next" or "previous" body etc...

:? (<- not sure what I'm saying here!)

Opinion?
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Post #125by chris » 11.02.2008, 21:08

ElChristou wrote:
chris wrote:...Perhaps for drag and drop between tools? Suppose that I have the orbit plotting tool open and want to select an object to plot. I could either type in the object name or drag it from the solar system browser. Perhaps the eclipse finder could work in a similar way.

Whaow, that sounds rather complex...

I begin to see two directions on the way the user may interact with Celestia.

One (with all those new ideas) seems to lead to an interaction via panels/tabs/bars and not anymore with the GL window itself.

The second could be more interaction with the GL windows specially with contextual menu.

I'm wondering if this direction could not be interesting...

Example (without much thoughts): You right-click on Saturn and a context menu in several part appear. One part could be related to orbits/labels/markers, with the possibility to interact with the selected body BUT ALSO why not with it's direct parents/childrens...
So in the case of Saturn we could find the possibility to display orbits/labels of it's whole system, navigate to the "next" or "previous" body etc...

:? (<- not sure what I'm saying here!)

Opinion?


Yes, the drag and drop example probably isn't the best. A more reasonable situation for multiple panels might be to have an add-on manager open at the same time as one of the browser tools. I just noticed that DW's Supertab application offers the option to detach tools. This is really isn't that dissimilar from how the Qt4 dockable widgets work: you can drag tools on top of each other to combine them in a single "tab" widget.

Using the context menu is a good idea for a lot of tasks. The same context menu appears in both the browser view and the 3D window, which is nicely consistent and rather convenient when interacting with invisible or very small objects. We could add a context menu item to popup the eclipse browser and other tools--it's arguably a better way to select a planet than drag and drop. We do need to be careful not to clutter the context menu, however--there's only so much room there, and hierarchical organization of functions is helpful but only gets us so far.

--Chris

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Post #126by ElChristou » 11.02.2008, 21:22

chris wrote:...I just noticed that DW's Supertab application offers the option to detach tools. This is really isn't that dissimilar from how the Qt4 dockable widgets work: you can drag tools on top of each other to combine them in a single "tab" widget.


Yep, but the single tabbed windows work so nicely (easy and fast switching, auto resize to always keep it as small as possible) that for most use it was almost enough...
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Post #127by ElChristou » 14.02.2008, 14:32

chris wrote:- Should there be a find object toolbar?


Do you think in removing the actual search feature (Enter/xx/Enter)?
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Post #128by Guckytos » 14.02.2008, 17:40

ElChristou wrote:
chris wrote:- Should there be a find object toolbar?

Do you think in removing the actual search feature (Enter/xx/Enter)?


I hope Chris is NOT thinking about that. Toolbars are fine and nice for novices, but I really like keyboard shortcuts that spare me moving the mouse more than necessary.

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Post #129by Cham » 14.02.2008, 18:55

ElChristou wrote:
chris wrote:- Should there be a find object toolbar?

Do you think in removing the actual search feature (Enter/xx/Enter)?


WHAT !?!? :evil:

DON'T even THINK about removing the bottom entry console ! This is one of the most important features of Celestia ! GEEZ !

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This feature can be enriched, however, by adding more power (or more enficiency) to it.
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Post #130by ElChristou » 14.02.2008, 19:04

Cham wrote:This feature can be enriched, however, by adding more power (or more enficiency) to it.


How?
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Post #131by Cham » 14.02.2008, 19:09

ElChristou wrote:
Cham wrote:This feature can be enriched, however, by adding more power (or more enficiency) to it.

How?


I'm not sure !

This function is so basic and already so efficient, I'm not sure how to improve it.

To search the HIP numbers too ? And there's a bug which prevent the selection of some stars in the database (there's already a bug repport, in the bug tracker list).
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Post #132by chris » 14.02.2008, 20:45

ElChristou wrote:
chris wrote:- Should there be a find object toolbar?

Do you think in removing the actual search feature (Enter/xx/Enter)?


No, I would never remove this feature. I use it constantly. I think it's important to add features that make Celestia easier for novices to use, but not at the expense of experienced users.

--Chris

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Post #133by ElChristou » 14.02.2008, 21:10

chris wrote:
ElChristou wrote:
chris wrote:- Should there be a find object toolbar?

Do you think in removing the actual search feature (Enter/xx/Enter)?

No, I would never remove this feature. I use it constantly. I think it's important to add features that make Celestia easier for novices to use, but not at the expense of experienced users.

--Chris


So I suppose Search toolbar would make double use...
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Post #134by Cham » 14.02.2008, 21:21

To me, a search toolbar (a floating palette ?) would be a mistake. It may prevent novices to learn and use the more fundamental search console in the bottom part of the screen. We don't need a "search toolbar" or whatever what it may be, except if it's included in the browser itself.

And from my personal experience in the laboratory with my astronomy students, novices are learning very fast the uses of the bottom search field. My students are already using it very frequently.
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Post #135by SiriusCG » 12.03.2008, 23:22

New kid on the block question: Has glgooey been considered for UI replacement? http://glgooey.sourceforge.net/

It's fairly OpenGL based, lightweight, easily integrated, OpenSourced including dependancies, cross-platform, has a broad range of controls, compiles under most compilers, is easy to customize and IMO at least, looks cool. I've used it on some OpenGl hobby projects and one visualization project.

As far s dependancies, glgooey uses zlib, libpng and Freetype, that's it.

I'm messing about with it now under VS8E and so far, good.

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Re: Celestia UI redesign

Post #136by duds26 » 27.03.2008, 14:09

Arrows for turning my field of view 90° left right up or down.
An element for clicking on (zooming) for using the telescope currently implemented/simulated in Celestia.

Here is one big one:
Use svg icons in all toolbars.
(Celestia is going to need svg support for this.)

And buttons like undo redo (so I can go back to places I have gone too) and many more of them.
A graphical representation of addons on a timeline.
Last edited by duds26 on 07.04.2008, 17:45, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Celestia UI redesign

Post #137by Vincent » 28.03.2008, 18:52

duds26 wrote:Arrows for turning my field of view 90° left right up or down.
An element for clicking on (zooming) for using the telescope currently implemented/simulated in Celestia.
These 2 ones, along with some other features, are already available in the Lua Tools:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12048
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Re: Celestia UI redesign

Post #138by duds26 » 12.04.2008, 10:16

Haven't seen if it's using svg, does anybody knows?


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